tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post4024705967869344805..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: A confusing weekMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-26945394727990026522010-10-06T07:19:57.480-07:002010-10-06T07:19:57.480-07:00Heraclitus,
"at best" with 'act as ...Heraclitus,<br /><br />"at best" with 'act as though we're almost certain' I can go with.<br /><br />But I don't think this case warrants an "at best" interpretation... I'm sticking with my original guess, but see the qualifiers in response to Neven. YMMV. Sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13314275740916798472010-10-06T06:45:03.818-07:002010-10-06T06:45:03.818-07:00At best we can draw conclusions based on our assu...At best we can draw conclusions based on our assumption of common humanity strong enough to act as though with perfect certainty.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-10276797816746959802010-10-06T06:21:41.996-07:002010-10-06T06:21:41.996-07:00Indeed. :-)Indeed. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-20121536682570459122010-10-06T05:59:08.578-07:002010-10-06T05:59:08.578-07:00I don't believe Franny is motivated to *act* o...<i>I don't believe Franny is motivated to *act* on those fantasies... or to sympathize with such actions were they committed by others... does that help?</i><br /><br /><i>It will take a long time to culturally adjust... and will require adjustments to the system... how to distribute wealth produced by robots and the knowledge of our ancestors... without ending up in a socialist paradise.</i><br /><br />It's good to see we agree on certain things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-56693719392382704452010-10-06T05:53:06.823-07:002010-10-06T05:53:06.823-07:00Heraclitus,
"we can never know another's...Heraclitus,<br /><br /><i>"we can never know another's meaning and intent is defeatist"</i><br /><br />... at best we can make educated guesses from their words and actions... whether that is true or not is tangential to whether it is defeatist or not... unfortunately it is true... i do not believe it is defeatist tho... our guesses often appear close enough...<br /><br /><i>"Why should we try to dispell this impression about the intentions of the 'No Pressure' film? Because the idea is false"</i><br /><br />... there again we'll have to agree to disgree...<br /><br /><i>"you seem to be big on the mind reading thing"</i><br /><br />... such beliefs are common and often derail discussions...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-37066668520619825282010-10-06T05:34:27.735-07:002010-10-06T05:34:27.735-07:00Sorry - meant "you seem to be big on the mind...Sorry - meant "you seem to be big on the mind reading <i>thing</i>". I've seen you use this argument elsewhere, I think.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-78077508485058909242010-10-06T05:31:48.056-07:002010-10-06T05:31:48.056-07:00On whether the film is funny I agree to disagree. ...On whether the film is funny I agree to disagree. Whether it will achieve any positive purpose, I'm still not fully sure that it won't.<br /><br />You seem to be big on the mind reading and I think you draw the wrong conclusions. We need to project our personal observations of our own humanity onto our phenomenological observations of the other if we are to avoid ultimately nihilistic solipsism. To simply conclude we can never know another's meaning and intent is defeatist.<br /><br />Why <i>should</i> we try to dispell this impression about the intentions of the 'No Pressure' film? Because the idea is false and if something good is to come from the film then we need to ensure that people truly understand the idea is false.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-31891577410758526532010-10-06T04:54:33.961-07:002010-10-06T04:54:33.961-07:00Neven,
"brainwashed into spiritless consumer...Neven,<br /><br /><i>"brainwashed into spiritless consumers and producers"</i><br /><br />That work and wealth ethic evolved from a struggle for existence, the 99% of human history where life was nasty, brutish, short. Now we struggle to live with plenty, there is very little real work to do, and people have more money than they can usefully spend. And still we want to work more and earn more! It will take a long time to culturally adjust... and will require adjustments to the system... how to distribute wealth produced by robots and the knowledge of our ancestors... without ending up in a socialist paradise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-22551616677347339652010-10-06T04:29:05.999-07:002010-10-06T04:29:05.999-07:00Neven,
I don't believe Franny is motivated to...Neven,<br /><br />I don't believe Franny is motivated to *act* on those fantasies... or to sympathize with such actions were they committed by others... does that help?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-48995141739142221832010-10-06T04:20:14.892-07:002010-10-06T04:20:14.892-07:00Neven,
Can you expand a bit more?
You seem to cl...Neven,<br /><br />Can you expand a bit more?<br /><br />You seem to claim...<br /><br />... the violence in the video and jokes by Franny reveal misanthropy (Freudian slip)<br /><br />... but the misanthropy doesn't necessarily relate to violent urges<br /><br />... then how does the violence indicate misanthropy?<br /><br />...you describe Franny as a fanatic... what does that mean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-90958972975345560652010-10-06T04:11:13.087-07:002010-10-06T04:11:13.087-07:00Neven,
Interesting.
"we don't have to e...Neven,<br /><br />Interesting.<br /><br /><i>"we don't have to equate misanthropy"</i><br /><br />Agreed that it isn't *necessarily* a motivation toward violence, real or wished.<br /><br />'fraid I still believe a frustrated emotional fantasy of hurting and intimidating the 'bad guys' is the most likely explanation, esp. given the repeat 'jokes' by Franny, and the potential for rationalization of those urges by the ends justifying the means... "threatening everybody's existence"... "300,000"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-87541600892961096622010-10-06T03:47:17.505-07:002010-10-06T03:47:17.505-07:00Sorry, for the double post. Blogger reported that ...Sorry, for the double post. Blogger reported that the first comment was too big, so I split it into two parts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-83556551663532251692010-10-06T03:46:18.212-07:002010-10-06T03:46:18.212-07:00BTW, this wasn't aimed at skeptics in particul...BTW, this wasn't aimed at skeptics in particular. Otherwise they would have framed the people who raised their hands differently, by letting them say dumb things like 'it's the sun!' or 'the IPCC is a fraud!' It was aimed at the people who will not take action. These are not rabid denialists. These are people who don't want to change habits.<br /><br />The blog world of alarmists and denialists is much smaller than we think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-46144050805012359282010-10-06T03:44:52.394-07:002010-10-06T03:44:52.394-07:00You're claiming it's inconceivable that an...<i>You're claiming it's inconceivable that anyone involved in the 10:10 video could want to inflict physical violence on their opponents. Therefore Franny could make hundreds of such jokes and it still would be alright? No qualms? Really?</i><br /><br />I agree with you up to this point, but I think you're projecting too much on your opponent here. I'm quite sure that nobody involved in this film would want to inflict physical violence on their opponents.<br /><br /><i>As Neven says, there is a misanthropic section of the environmental movement, it is small, but it is real, and if we end up excusing it and pretending it doesn't exist... we end up in a dark place.</i><br /><br />Sure, but we don't have to equate misanthropy to wishing mass murder or political liquidations. These are not the same things. Genocide and political liquidations have to do with hatred of certain groups, not of mankind as a whole or the species of Homo not so Sapiens.<br /><br />I think misanthropy is a quite logical response. Just looking at what human beings, individually and as groups, are doing and have done to each other, to animals, and to their habitat, is heartrending. If a peaceful alien species would come and see what is coming out of the tremendous possibilities we as conscious beings possess, I think their would be a lot of head shaking in disbelief and disapproval.<br /><br />I can sometimes go desperate when I think of the utter stupidity of the masses to let itself be brainwashed into spiritless consumers and producers to serve a system that is conceived to make the rich even richer, and in consequence will make billions go miserable, hungry and dead. But that doesn't mean I want to put everyone into concentration camps or blow them up (and neither does Frannie Armstrong). And I try very hard to not let this frustration cloud my thinking about pragmatic solutions.<br /><br />Don't make the misanthropy bigger than it is, Lazar. And don't give Lazar an opportunity to fall into that paranoid trap, Frannie Armstrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-17210776937749823412010-10-06T03:44:13.528-07:002010-10-06T03:44:13.528-07:00You're claiming it's inconceivable that an...<i>You're claiming it's inconceivable that anyone involved in the 10:10 video could want to inflict physical violence on their opponents. Therefore Franny could make hundreds of such jokes and it still would be alright? No qualms? Really?</i><br /><br />I agree with you up to this point, but I think you're projecting too much on your opponent here. I'm quite sure that nobody involved in this film would want to inflict physical violence on their opponents.<br /><br /><i>As Neven says, there is a misanthropic section of the environmental movement, it is small, but it is real, and if we end up excusing it and pretending it doesn't exist... we end up in a dark place.</i><br /><br />Sure, but we don't have to equate misanthropy to wishing mass murder or political liquidations. These are not the same things. Genocide and political liquidations have to do with hatred of certain groups, not of mankind as a whole or the species of Homo not so Sapiens.<br /><br />I think misanthropy is a quite logical response. Just looking at what human beings, individually and as groups, are doing and have done to each other, to animals, and to their habitat, is heartrending. If a peaceful alien species would come and see what is coming out of the tremendous possibilities we as conscious beings possess, I think their would be a lot of head shaking in disbelief and disapproval.<br /><br />I can sometimes go desperate when I think of the utter stupidity of the masses to let itself be brainwashed into spiritless consumers and producers to serve a system that is conceived to make the rich even richer, and in consequence will make billions go miserable, hungry and dead. But that doesn't mean I want to put everyone into concentration camps or blow them up (and neither does Frannie Armstrong). And I try very hard to not let this frustration cloud my thinking about pragmatic solutions.<br /><br />Don't make the misanthropy bigger than it is, Lazar. And don't give Lazar an opportunity to fall into that paranoid trap, Frannie Armstrong.<br /><br />BTW, this wasn't aimed at skeptics in particular. Otherwise they would have framed the people who raised their hands differently, by letting them say dumb things 'it's the sun!' or 'the IPCC is a fraud!' It was aimed at the people who will not take action. These are not rabid denialists. These are people who don't want to change habits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13908632575015912212010-10-06T03:37:42.104-07:002010-10-06T03:37:42.104-07:00Heraclitus,
"I do claim that the reality is ...Heraclitus,<br /><br /><i>"I do claim that the reality is they don't"</i><br /><br />... neither of use can read minds, we're both speculating.<br /><br /><i>"I don't believe anyone can look at what they have said and done and come to any other conclusion."</i><br /><br />I can and do.<br /><br /><i>"this idea can and should quickly be dispelled"</i><br /><br />why "should"?<br /><br /><i>"I think she can get away with the joke a few more times"</i><br /><br />Okay.<br /><br />I can't see this going much further... agree to disagree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-57506661319967487572010-10-06T03:29:43.006-07:002010-10-06T03:29:43.006-07:00Lazar, I don't claim it's inconceivable th...Lazar, I don't claim it's inconceivable that anyone in the 10:10 campaign wants to commit physical violence but I do claim that the reality is they don't. I don't believe anyone can look at what they have said and done and come to any other conclusion. The conceivability that they might is where the film becomes 'edgy', but this idea can and should quickly be dispelled.<br /><br />For me I think she can get away with the joke a few more times, though she'd be advised not to try too often.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-54872057813890350952010-10-06T03:20:41.333-07:002010-10-06T03:20:41.333-07:00I don't think it's not a Freudian slip bec...I don't think it's not a Freudian slip because it couldn't reflect a deep-seated deisre for the problem of inactivism to simply 'go away', but because of the intentionality in the film. There was a conscious choice, maybe wrong, naive or stupid, tbut still a choice to frame the message in this way.<br /><br />I think you're unfair on Franny Armstrong. It seems to me she represents the opposite to the sort of fanatic you portray her as. By her own admission she is obsessed by climate change (it is difficult to be anything else once you accept the reality we face) but she has responded to this obsession in a far more positive and constructive way than most of us. The films she has made and the work she has put in to the 10:10 campaign are the opposite of the despairing response of a misanthropist. In my view the film deliberately plays on this and puts up the misanthropic vision in order to utterly dismiss it in reality.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-35028246818415304632010-10-06T03:18:44.322-07:002010-10-06T03:18:44.322-07:00Heraclitus,
"Racist jokes are not funny"...Heraclitus,<br /><br /><i>"Racist jokes are not funny"</i><br /><br />The issue I'm raising is not whether the jokes are funny... which depends on the individual... I'm asking how many times does the 'it is only a joke of course they don't mean that' excuse work?... "How many times can one joke about inflicting violence on political opponents before rational people stop giving the benefit of the doubt?"<br /><br /><i>"racism is a real and insidious issue"</i><br /><br />Violence and the desire to inflict violence on political opponents are real issues (whether they are capable of acting on that wish is a separate issue)... particularly where as Matt Wootten put it "caring" emotions run high e.g. animal rights and anti-abortion activism and even <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/01/AR2010090103911.html?hpid=topnews" rel="nofollow">environmentalism</a>. Remember Franny believes...<br /><br />"those people, who are together threatening everybody's existence on this planet?" [...] "300,000 real people who now die each year from climate change"<br /><br />You're claiming it's inconceivable that anyone involved in the 10:10 video could want to inflict physical violence on their opponents. Therefore Franny could make hundreds of such jokes and it still would be alright? No qualms? Really?<br /><br />As Neven says, there is a misanthropic section of the environmental movement, it is small, but it is real, and if we end up excusing it and pretending it doesn't exist... we end up in a dark place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-33404919266165631882010-10-06T02:57:45.134-07:002010-10-06T02:57:45.134-07:00(P.S. missing my early morning dose of Arctic sea ...<i>(P.S. missing my early morning dose of Arctic sea ice - so what's happening in the Antarctic these days?)</i><br /><br />Check the Open Thread. Don't know about the Antarctic. I'll do a blog on that one, when the canary decides to show signs of asphyxiation in that part of the world. Perhaps it already does, but not clearly enough, like it does in the Arctic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-275690135350247772010-10-06T02:54:44.955-07:002010-10-06T02:54:44.955-07:00I'd say you're being unfair to use the ter...<i>I'd say you're being unfair to use the term 'freudian slip' here.</i><br /><br />But it is a bit of a Freudian slip. That is what you get when you combine a certain (more fanatical) part of the environmentalist movement with PR and film professionals who never think more than 1 second about AGW or sustainability. <br /><br />Things show through in this ad. Like the misanthropy, which is not the whole story. Frustration plays a part as well, and I think everyone sometimes thinks 'if people would just do what I tell them, everything will be fine'.<br /><br />Misanthropy doesn't equate to genocide. I don't think that Frannie Armstrong wants to kill skeptics or the brainwashed masses in general, but I don't think she would mind if they all got the avian flu either.<br /><br />I'm fine with that. I also sometimes think that the Earth doesn't have the carrying capacity for so many people in this delusional system of exponential economic growth. But my ethics tell me I should look at the system first, and then the population problem.<br /><br />However, if you're a fanatic (and I have a strong suspicion Frannie Armstrong is one, not only based on this ad and her remarks, but also on <i>The Age of Stupid</i> and the interviews and articles I read surrounding it) you will want a) that population gets reduced drastically, again, not by genocide, but rather voluntarily and/or catastrophes, and b) that everyone does as you say before it's too late.<br /><br />And that really shows through in this ad, combined with the mindless professionalism of the people who determine our culture (hence the splattering blood=funny aberration). Despite all good intentions. <br /><br />Anyway, that's how I see it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-69362409840266200042010-10-06T02:19:40.424-07:002010-10-06T02:19:40.424-07:00Neven, maybe you're right and there is a perce...Neven, maybe you're right and there is a perception in the UK that there are groups of activists who could contemplate physical attacks - there are animal rights groups, for example, that might foster this perception. But I don't think anyone could associate this with the 10:10 campaign, or any similar group working within the normal bounds of social discourse, and I'd say you're being unfair to use the term 'freudian slip' here.<br /><br />Possibly this film risks erroding the boundary between these approaches, at least in people's perceptions, and I guess that was basically Lazar's point. But I think we should be attacking that (false) perception, not the film, however ill-advised it was.<br /><br />(P.S. missing my early morning dose of Arctic sea ice - so what's happening in the Antarctic these days?)Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-79222538782010573482010-10-06T01:40:44.824-07:002010-10-06T01:40:44.824-07:00the difference in mindset between the US and the U...<i>the difference in mindset between the US and the UK </i><br /><br />I've asked a few friends in the UK and none of them thought it was funny. They thought it was tasteless (the splatter) and the message was wrong (if you're not with us, you're against us). Mind you, these Brits I know are very eco-conscious people. One friend in the Netherlands thought it was a good ad, because it wasn't so soft, like most environmental ads are (which BTW isn't true). Coincidentally, he's in the advertising business, so there you go.<br /><br />There certainly is a part of the environmentalist movement (which isn’t half as homogenous as the denialist movement, where utter nutcases like Monckton, Delingpole, Corbyn and Plimer are accepted because they serve a purpose) that is obviously so frustrated with the slow pace and the semi-solutions, that they most of all would like to see a large part of humanity disappear, so we can all return to some primitivist no-tech culture.<br /><br />I don’t think they are actually willing to commit genocide, like the ‘ill doers are ill deemers’ denialists are suggesting, but they wouldn’t mind if the avian flu really did come to pass and killed by the b/millions. There most definitely is a misanthropic element to a part of the environmental movement, and I think this ad was a bit of a Freudian slip for the people behind it (like Frannie Armstrong).<br /><br />I don’t like people like that, just like I don’t like denialists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-72568619159422353892010-10-06T01:31:52.369-07:002010-10-06T01:31:52.369-07:00Lazar - I struggle to believe you don't see th...Lazar - I struggle to believe you don't see the difference between jokes about physical harm towards inactivists and racist jokes. Racist jokes are not funny because racism is a real and insidious issue. Franny's coments are of a fundamentally different order because even the thought of inflicting physical harm in this context is absurd. Or at least it is absurd coming from the 10:10 campaign, which is as benign an organisation as it is possible to imagine.<br /><br />I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that the main problem with the 'No Pressure' film has been the difference in mindset between the US and the UK - in the US it's possible that people genuinely don't see this threat of violence as absurd. This is perhaps related to the Authoritarian / Nurturing divide.Heraclitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00866938801071732505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-75956636588802925552010-10-05T16:33:47.267-07:002010-10-05T16:33:47.267-07:00Points...
How many times can one joke about infli...Points...<br /><br />How many times can one joke about inflicting violence on political opponents before rational people stop giving the benefit of the doubt? What if, instead, it's racist jokes?<br /><br />If the above is excusable, then no complaints for...<br /><br /><i>"Making sure that every scientist at every university in this country who has been involved in this is named and fired, drawn and quartered"</i> -- Rush Limbaugh<br /><br /><i>"There's not enough knives. If this, if the IPCC had been done by Japanese scientists, there's not enough knives on planet Earth for hara-kiri that should have occurred."</i> -- Glenn Beck<br /><br />Call me a simple cynic (is that a contradiction?)... but the ending that lingers on the blood and the no pressure message is sinister... the fascist glove fits better than more generous hypotheses<br /><br /><i>"what to do with those people"</i>... we don't wanna go down that path...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com