tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post5711521293864783292..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: On Waiting for CatastropheMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-77724451033575968322011-05-06T12:46:49.418-07:002011-05-06T12:46:49.418-07:00Just about any day, Romm has climate & energy ...Just about any day, Romm has climate & energy news ... I can see how some conservatives would not be pleased, but that's the breaks. <br /><br />Back to comment # 1:<br />". Sea level is likely to be 1 meter higher,...." And then another meter, then another ... how high is CO2 going? How far did the tide come in the last time? Does the world end in 2100? <br /><br />Waiting for disaster? No, don't just wait, keep acting in the meanwhile. Politics? If the newest right makes itself disagreeable enough, perhaps they will experience an electoral disaster.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17383755657072251973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-4538932043145938822011-05-06T08:06:22.818-07:002011-05-06T08:06:22.818-07:00While I think MT prefers that I drop this, may I p...While I think MT prefers that I drop this, may I point out that my comment (May 4, 2011 12:57 PM) objected to Fuller's attempt to insult MT by putting him in the same box as Romm. The reason that Romm's being paid partisan matters to me - but apparently to nobody else - is simply this. I am sure that MT's writing comes from sincerely held positions, unencumbered by other agendas. With Romm, I'm not so sure.<br /><br />As my comment about Romm contributed to taking this thread away from the relevant topic of Stavin's statement and how we can achieve energy transformation without the cap/trade or tax regime that are not presently politically viable, you have my apology.Paul Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855759989308442259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-83545798056313872152011-05-06T05:37:59.722-07:002011-05-06T05:37:59.722-07:00I don't see why it should be particularly rema...I don't see why it should be particularly remarkable that people are paid to blog. Peiople are paid to write for the dead tree media or express their opinions on TV, why not on the internet?andrew adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196332706764660436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-60352336244630799642011-05-05T20:40:44.896-07:002011-05-05T20:40:44.896-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-78077989328013408052011-05-05T18:15:56.826-07:002011-05-05T18:15:56.826-07:00Paul Kelly,
I suggest you read The Republican War...Paul Kelly,<br /><br />I suggest you read The Republican War on Science and/or Merchants of Doubt and look at sourcewatch, also the New Yorker expose of the Koch networks.<br /><br />Then come back to me and talk about partisan funding.<br /><br />The web of funding and web of thinktanks, many of them stretching back to the era of big tobacco, is startling in its size and reach, and many of our congresspeople on both sides of the aisle are bought and paid for.<br /><br />I am happy that there are a few progressive organizations forward looking enough to fund honest reporting, which is certainly not what we are getting from the "other" side.<br /><br />mt, thanks for the welcome, hope I don't wear it out!susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829151452002682271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-59682584728091350352011-05-05T14:56:36.145-07:002011-05-05T14:56:36.145-07:00Dhogaza,
Close, but no cigar. The time it took to...Dhogaza,<br /><br />Close, but no cigar. The time it took to respond to your unattributed out of context quote about the Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit (EOR) was well worth it. EOR uses heated gasses - usually steam, but CO2 with sequestration is in beta - to extract high viscosity oil. <br /><br />The great majority of extractors using EOR are independents. The big oil companies, with the possible exception of Occidental, don't have many of these types of wells. <br /><br />Read this carefully. The EOR Credit only kicks in when the price of oil goes below a certain price that started out in 1992 at $28/bbl. The peg price is adjusted every year for inflation and is currently around $40. The credit cannot be taken at all if the price of oil is above the peg price.<br /><br />You understand this means there is no EOR Credit this year or last year or the year before that. You might have to go back to 2005 or before to find the last time the credit was available. In fact, from the beginning of the credit in 1992 availability has been the anomaly, not the norm.<br /><br />O horrors! We're giving the oil companies a tax subsidy worth exactly zero.Paul Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855759989308442259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-68888000880832410992011-05-05T11:14:47.889-07:002011-05-05T11:14:47.889-07:00Neven,
I haven't questioned Romm's integr...Neven,<br /><br />I haven't questioned Romm's integrity, only his effectiveness and accuracy. That he is open about his employers doesn't alter the fact that he is paid to blog while MT blogs because of personal passion. Watts, who scores high on effectiveness and low on accuracy, has nothing to do with MT vs Romm.Paul Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855759989308442259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-53429520589469317532011-05-05T08:54:55.301-07:002011-05-05T08:54:55.301-07:00Romm is paid to blog by the hyper partisan Center ...<i>Romm is paid to blog by the hyper partisan Center for American Progress. That's just the fact and stating a fact labels me as honest.</i><br /><br />Has Romm ever hid this. No, he's very straightforward about his work for CAP and his partisanship.<br /><br />I'm not a big fan of Joe Romm (I'm a small fan), he might not always be right about everything and his no-nonsense style can be over the top, but I'm not doubting his integrity.<br /><br />On the other side of the mirror: After years of hardcore denying (and still going strong), Tony Watts is now also openly stating that the free market will solve all the problems (that don't exist).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-46162301637360758962011-05-05T01:44:12.558-07:002011-05-05T01:44:12.558-07:00Paul -
The replacement of coal fired generation w...Paul -<br /><br />The replacement of coal fired generation with nuclear electricity - something which should be a no-brainer if we are taking climate change seriously - has to be top-down; there is no realistic way of arranging incentives such that a fully amortized coal plant with perhaps 30 year's life left should be turned off and a nuclear plant built instead. As an aside, it might be possible to retrofit such a station with a reactor instead of combustion unit.. although I can't vouch for how realistic that would be.<br /><br />As far as 80% goes..<br /><br />Step 1. Decarbonize the electric grid, totally. That means nuclear plus hydro plus whatever other renewables are useful.<br /><br />Step 2. Electrify domestic energy useage; i.e. no oil or gas fired heating. This would require serious grid upgrades (especially for the US), but combined with step 1 takes your electricity and domestic emissions to near-zero.<br /><br />Step 3. Improve car and truck efficiency. The US desperately needs to start using the new generation of diesel engines in SUVs and light trucks; you are talking about a better engine match and a near doubling of economy. Add in EVs for city driving as well as hybrids and the US car based way of life is not impossible. Eventually, synthetic fuels should be available.<br /><br />Step 4. The hard problems: Air travel; long distance goods transport; industrial usage; shipping. As far as industrial use goes, a large scale supply of cheap zero-carbon electricity may help. For medium distance travel and haulage (200->2000 miles), a very high speed, electrified rail network could be effective; past that you'll probably be looking again at synthetic fuels.<br /><br />But I cannot see how any of this works without a government mandate to decarbonize the electric grid 100%. Conversely, without this step any attempt to lower emissions is liable to invoke Jevon's paradox.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02729454651003425550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-60700205884143408522011-05-04T16:51:24.482-07:002011-05-04T16:51:24.482-07:00"I suggest you look at public opinion about c..."I suggest you look at public opinion about catastrophic climate change when he first started blogging compared to where public opinion is today. Is there a trend?"<br /><br />Also, Paul, please point to a poll the specifically asks about <i>catastrophic</i> climate change. Given that the phrase is an invention of the denialsphere I suspect you can't.dhogazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589109126483161671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-53677338499515211862011-05-04T16:32:13.115-07:002011-05-04T16:32:13.115-07:00It's not hard to argue that most of the US mil...It's not hard to argue that most of the US military presence in the Middle East is a subsidy of the petroleum industry.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-10259990246955633142011-05-04T15:52:52.587-07:002011-05-04T15:52:52.587-07:00"I suggest you look at public opinion about c..."I suggest you look at public opinion about catastrophic climate change when he first started blogging compared to where public opinion is today. Is there a trend?"<br /><br />Is there causation?<br /><br />Show your homework, please.dhogazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589109126483161671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-41213631003705283552011-05-04T15:51:35.240-07:002011-05-04T15:51:35.240-07:00"Congress has enacted several tax credits in ..."Congress has enacted several tax credits in relation to oil or natural gas production. The enhanced oil recovery credit is applied to certain project costs incurred to enhance a well’s oil or natural gas production. This credit is up to 15% of the costs incurred to enhance production. "<br /><br />This is specific to oil and gas, and is in addition to expensing the direct costs of operations.dhogazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589109126483161671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-15369942228098032862011-05-04T15:32:40.464-07:002011-05-04T15:32:40.464-07:00Susan,
Romm is paid to blog by the hyper partisan...Susan,<br /><br />Romm is paid to blog by the hyper partisan Center for American Progress. That's just the fact and stating a fact labels me as honest.<br /><br />As to the effectiveness of his style, I suggest you look at public opinion about catastrophic climate change when he first started blogging compared to where public opinion is today. Is there a trend?<br /><br />As to his accuracy, can you or he name one tax break that is specific to big oil alone and not available to all businesses?Paul Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855759989308442259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-73518065809415271722011-05-04T15:00:47.754-07:002011-05-04T15:00:47.754-07:00susan,
I agree with you about Romm - whatever one...susan,<br /><br />I agree with you about Romm - whatever one thinks of his style he writes about a lot of the wider issues around climate change and energy policy which are not always well covered by other bloggers. <br /><br />Some people are too quick to judge others on their style of argument rather than its content. I'm all for civilised discourse but on important and contentious topics it's also important to tell it how it is. No doubt skeptics find CP not to their taste, so what - it's not aimed at them. Romm preaches to the converted, but sometimes it's ok for us to talk amongs ourselves.andrew adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196332706764660436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-80865480373098716242011-05-04T14:50:35.531-07:002011-05-04T14:50:35.531-07:00Oh come on Tom, I didn't neccessarily expect n...Oh come on Tom, I didn't neccessarily expect non-Brits to competely get the joke but it's still pretty obvious that I wasn't literally accusing Watts of being a murdering thug. The point is about defending the indefensible.<br /><br />As for your comment that "You guys are doing more damange than Watts. First, your lot are the principal recruiting tool for skeptics", <br />when are you, Mosher, Curry, etc. going to accept the simple fact that the "skeptics" are actually responsible for their own actions? When are yu going to start calling them on their bullshit instead of encouraging them?andrew adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196332706764660436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-91266993372597726342011-05-04T14:44:21.791-07:002011-05-04T14:44:21.791-07:00Susan, a bit off topic, but I've always apprec...Susan, a bit off topic, but I've always appreciated your comments at Revkin's, and I'm glad you've stopped by. I hope you stick around.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-87554495715353824982011-05-04T14:34:16.456-07:002011-05-04T14:34:16.456-07:00As for Romm being a paid shill, that is one person...As for Romm being a paid shill, that is one person's assertion, and IMNHSO, incorrect. When you make those assertions, you label yourself. Here's what Roberts said, which I thought was particularly insightful: "“Love him or hate him (and I’m a lover), Joe Romm is not exactly a slick media spin artist. He doesn’t seem to know any way of communicating other than by stating, in the strongest possible terms, what he believes to be correct. He doesn’t couch his criticism in the sort of soothing, this-side, that-side, we’re-all-reasonable-people throat clearing that attracts the admiration of Serious People. He just blasts away, all guns blazing; he can’t help it. Whatever you call that, it’s hardly a devious strategy to control Bryan Walsh’s mind. It’s pretty above board! The guy who really wants to manipulate your narratives, the guy who’s good at it, doesn’t tell you he’s doing it."<br />http://www.grist.org/climate-change/2011-04-26-why-ive-avoided-commenting-on-nisbets-climate-shift-report<br /><br />One of the problems you guys have with him is that he has excellent technical qualifications, aggregates "all the news that's fit to print" and writes well and with force and fervor about the environment and all the shenanigans that mess up reality and truth with politics and money. For example, in the last day or so, he's written about Sarah Palin's defense of oil subsidies ("We're only taking $4 billion or so"), the Arctic Monitoring and Assessment Programmes increase in estimated sea level rise; dust storms in Arkansas and the ridiculousness of the NYTimes illustrating it in a way that suggests prayer is a proper approach, meteorological analysis and detailed information about tornadoes, and a host of other issues, big and small.<br /><br />I can see where you'd rather none of this saw the light of day, but that does not redound to your credit. Romm's indefatigable pursuit of the truth does him great credit, and if he's angry, it's no surprise, as there's lots to be angry about.susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829151452002682271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-49491941900867513732011-05-04T14:12:19.244-07:002011-05-04T14:12:19.244-07:00oops, that was "proof positive"
Let me ...oops, that was "proof positive"<br /><br />Let me be clear. Those few escaping with their prejudices intact include the likes of Lindzen - the very small cadre of official denialist icons.susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829151452002682271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-4520528897312226302011-05-04T14:10:04.600-07:002011-05-04T14:10:04.600-07:00One place this conversation went off the rails is ...One place this conversation went off the rails is in calling anyone who buys the denialist canon according to Watts a skeptic. True skeptics question all sides, and the above is proof position that these people are fake skeptics. They are in favor of any argument that promotes their ideas, and against anything, which includes the vast majority of real science, that challenges this belief system.<br /><br />All good scientists are true skeptics.<br /><br />Well, almost all. There are a few outliers who sneak by with some of their prejudices intact.susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829151452002682271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-74049308271729681932011-05-04T12:57:46.298-07:002011-05-04T12:57:46.298-07:00This site is not at all like climateprogress and s...This site is not at all like climateprogress and should not be compared to it. MT and Romm may be in the same political bloc and share existential climate concerns, but Romm is a paid shill incapable of civility or introspection whose writing lacks an emotional self.<br /><br />Stavin's statement is an inelegant way of saying success must come in the marketplace of ideas before it can be achieved in the political arena.Paul Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855759989308442259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-21928738391621987822011-05-04T10:56:14.961-07:002011-05-04T10:56:14.961-07:00I'm not encouraging anybody.
The conversatio...I'm not encouraging anybody. <br /><br />The conversation tends to be more lively when moderation is off. <br /><br />But if it's off, and Fuller shows up with one of his marginal comments, I feel like I would need some sort of justification to remove it.<br /><br />An example of why Blogger is inadequate for a site like this. <br /><br />Now, I remain convinced that Fuller is not a contrivance of a smarter person, but is in fact someone who thinks he is thinking about a problem when I think he is just feeling at a problem. In short, a classic victim of truthiness as much as a perpetrator. So he is interesting in the abstract.<br /><br />In the concrete, though, it's (obviously to most of my readers) quite tedious. <br /><br />While I find him generally dull, I don't like to see him accused of malice. Fuller knows that attacks on his motivations are incorrect, and this just reaffirms the polarization.<br /><br />I don't want a counter-Watts echo chamber, either. Contrary opinions are extremely welcome if they are intelligent and openminded. Those are just hard to find anymore, for some reason, probably having to do with the fact that the range of opinions most of us here have is essentially correct.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-23089311129175140612011-05-04T10:40:12.696-07:002011-05-04T10:40:12.696-07:00Is there some other thread where I can ask Tom F h...Is there some other thread where I can ask Tom F how he justifies defending Watts? This isn't the place, but it seems to me anyone defending Watts immediately puts themselves beyond serious consideration; I'm just ever so slightly curious how Tom explains Watts' serial duplicity. If he can't, I'm also confused about why MT would encourage anyone unable to see Watts for what he is.Dolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17110810881843699172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-20031904196099417522011-05-04T09:22:18.814-07:002011-05-04T09:22:18.814-07:00Tobis, you don't need an excuse. You don't...Tobis, you don't need an excuse. You don't want me here, I'll go.<br /><br />Bye.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12747117922597525042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-21748798439794532022011-05-04T09:15:51.662-07:002011-05-04T09:15:51.662-07:00Tom, please be just ever so slightly more boring a...Tom, please be just ever so slightly more boring and pointless, so I can just boot you?Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.com