tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post6369372144270684136..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: Post-Growth ProgressMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-26218541539946288372011-01-31T12:49:27.588-08:002011-01-31T12:49:27.588-08:00Masuda San, go back and read John McCarthy on sci....Masuda San, go back and read John McCarthy on sci.environment, perhaps the first of the cornicopians, who, when you got to the bottom of it was basing everything on zero energy costEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-12579288559654263912011-01-30T06:10:01.023-08:002011-01-30T06:10:01.023-08:00When we (5% of the world's population) are suc...When we (5% of the world's population) are successful in convincing the other 95% to adopt our brand of "economic" system, which clearly requires infinite physical resources, our central, suicidal inanity is revealed when we only THEN begin to be concerned.<br /><br />John PumaJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12479974040070719985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-18264526980091091162011-01-26T18:44:58.475-08:002011-01-26T18:44:58.475-08:00Dean. please resubmit.
New rule: no sniping at Fu...Dean. please resubmit.<br /><br />New rule: no sniping at Fuller on a thread he's been kicked off of. Seems only fair.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-3177111386739921592011-01-26T18:24:07.252-08:002011-01-26T18:24:07.252-08:00Doesn't matter, our worries are over. Plenty o...Doesn't matter, <a href="http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-italian-scientists-cold-fusion-video.html" rel="nofollow">our worries are over</a>. Plenty of energy in the form of electricity, and with a byproduct of copper to conduct it to boot, with no emissions at all.<br /><br />/sarcasmKing of the Roadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06841601144107400103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-8858764933880021512011-01-26T15:25:14.609-08:002011-01-26T15:25:14.609-08:00I had said this in the previous post where Michael...I had said this in the previous post where Michael dissects Fuller's arguments, and I want to repeat it here:<br /><br />Cornucopians and people poo-pooing sustainability have not understood the difference between finding ways to get more money per day from an ATM, and figuring out how to get a higher income. They talk like the idle kid that, after inheriting a fortune, thinks his finances are going swell because he figured out how to convince the estate administrator to let him spend more and more of the fortune every year, to have an increasingly lavish life style, while never looking at the balance of the bank account, and never worrying about finding a job.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483406388078292912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-59443030052476846472011-01-26T11:29:10.930-08:002011-01-26T11:29:10.930-08:00million / billion error in china's future oil ...million / billion error in china's future oil need.Gravitylosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06169853327061102628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-52972886503309524092011-01-26T11:03:20.081-08:002011-01-26T11:03:20.081-08:00An update of "you don't know what you'...An update of "you don't know what you've got til it's gone" -- there is no "gone" -- nothing goes away:<br /><br />http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-it-feb-11Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-7899265363871154712011-01-26T10:44:14.072-08:002011-01-26T10:44:14.072-08:00Content free contribution by Fuller deleted. My co...Content free contribution by Fuller deleted. My content-free response also deleted with apologies.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-54368651501586607452011-01-26T10:33:52.661-08:002011-01-26T10:33:52.661-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-2408239743864117012011-01-26T10:28:31.753-08:002011-01-26T10:28:31.753-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12747117922597525042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-28798482979179880832011-01-26T09:35:57.724-08:002011-01-26T09:35:57.724-08:00It seems that this PDF is a preprint of "Ayre...It seems that this PDF is a preprint of "Ayres and Warr 2005".<br /><br />Robert U. Ayres and Benjamin Warr, 2002: Accounting for Growth: The Role of Physical Work. <a href="http://www.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?did=1244" rel="nofollow">INSEAD Working Paper 2002/70/EPS/CMER.</a>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13437041108856598560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-40704611089179350932011-01-26T09:24:52.769-08:002011-01-26T09:24:52.769-08:00I think that the works of Robert Ayres (web site) ...I think that the works of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ayres_%28scientist%29" rel="nofollow">Robert Ayres</a> <a href="http://www.insead.edu/facultyresearch/faculty/profiles/rayres/" rel="nofollow">(web site)</a> are important in demostrating that economic growth is crucially dependent on growth in energy resource consumption in the current economic system. I wonder why his works are not included in the reference list of CASSE. Perhaps because they are analyses of the current system and they do not show visions of sustainable systems.<br /><br />In economic modeling, there has been efforts to express production (GDP) as a function of labor and capital, but those had very large residuals that has been considered something to do with technology. It seems that economic growth depend more on this residual than on labor and capital. Ayres and Warr examined data on energy resource consumption of the USA and Japan in the 20th Century, and found that the residual is largely explained by the amount of energy resource effectively used.<br /><br />(I was introduced to the works of Ayres and Warr by the book on the oil peak by Strahan (2007). I do not buy the conspiracy theory about the Iraq war in the Chapter 1 of Strahan's book, but I like the rest.) <br /><br />Robert U. AYRES and Benjamin WARR, 2005:<br />Accounting for growth: The role of physical work.<br /><i>Structural Change and Economic Dynamics</i>,<br /><b>16</b>, 181 - 209. (I found a PDF file at the authors' web site previously, but I do not find it now.)<br /><br />Robert U. AYRES and Benjamin WARR, 2009: <i>The Economic Growth Engine: How Energy and Work Drive Material Prosperity</i>.<br />Cheltenham Glos. UK: Edward Elgar, 411 pp.<br /><br />David STRAHAN, 2007 (paperback 2008): <i>The Last Oil Shock -- A Survival Guide to the Imminent Extinction of Petroleum Man</i>. London: John Murray, 290 pp.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13437041108856598560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-69603617836847564052011-01-26T09:18:42.657-08:002011-01-26T09:18:42.657-08:00I'd highly recommend Thomas Homer-Dixon's ...I'd highly recommend Thomas Homer-Dixon's "The Upside of Down" for readers of this thread. <br /><br />His thesis (from the webpage): "The Upside of Down sets out a theory of the growth, crisis, and renewal of societies. Today's converging energy, environmental, and political-economic stresses could cause a breakdown of national and global order. Yet there are things we can do now to keep such a breakdown from being catastrophic. And some kinds of breakdown could even open up extraordinary opportunities for creative, bold reform of our societies, if we're prepared to exploit these opportunities when they arise."joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06802141921007062377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-68849738826410701732011-01-26T07:40:09.031-08:002011-01-26T07:40:09.031-08:00The rules have changed. In a single generation, re...<i>The rules have changed. In a single generation, revolutions in technology have transformed the way we live, work and do business. Steel mills that once needed 1,000 workers can now do the same work with 100.</i><br />- Barack Obama, January 25, 2011<br /><br />I can't believe a president of the US, in charge of preserving the liberal economic model, actually said it. To that, I say, <a href="http://technocracy.org/environmenttn/resources" rel="nofollow"> Technocracy Now! </a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-39053966779885846162011-01-26T04:10:31.430-08:002011-01-26T04:10:31.430-08:00Thank you Eli, that's always my view.
I can n...Thank you Eli, that's always my view.<br /><br />I can never understand why contrarians go on about us being thrown into smelly unlit caves by abandoning unnecessary emissions. If we do it right, the main achievement will be that currently developed countries will throw off the shackles of dirty polluting industries. <br /><br />Developing countries should be able to avoid most of that filthy smelly stage and go straight for simple elegant solutions to their economic and technological problems.adeladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02019930864931919369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-29685795492346584902011-01-25T18:41:36.489-08:002011-01-25T18:41:36.489-08:00The energy cost of operating an old tube radio and...The energy cost of operating an old tube radio and a modern one based on a couple of monolithic chips is? <br /><br />Eli much prefers the concept of elegant living, living based on solutions that waste little and do much. Tom is one of those old Russian Coal and Steel guys running around with his fifty kilo boom box and his Plymouth FuryEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-74369713846593890612011-01-25T18:33:30.315-08:002011-01-25T18:33:30.315-08:00Quoting MT: "I have essentially no skills tha...Quoting MT: "I have essentially no skills that would be of use in a postapocalyptic society. So I pretty much don't plan for it."<br /><br />*Nobody* has skills that would be of use in a post-apocalyptic society. We are coming up upon the eye of the needle, and who knows what is on the other side.<br /><br />Or, it could all turn out just ducky. Or it could be some half-baked mix of nuclear, coal, throwing reflective mist into the air, flooding, even greater disparity as the poor get flooded and starved, etc. Every poorly thought out idea to turn the ocean liner around, all tried at the same time, with the lower classes thrown out with the stowage.<br /><br />That is why I bitterly laugh at the posturing of these great "humanitarian" fossil fuel burners.manuel moe ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04878149837118503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-67523870656299987322011-01-25T18:33:08.052-08:002011-01-25T18:33:08.052-08:00In its own way, relevant to this thread (including...In its own way, relevant to this thread (including comments) is <br /><a href="http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/projects/sztp/translations/eihei_shingi/translations/tenzo_kyokun/translation.html" rel="nofollow">Dogun's <i>Instructions for the Cook</i></a>.David B. Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917182411282836875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-6314730574728571682011-01-25T17:44:03.331-08:002011-01-25T17:44:03.331-08:00I have essentially no skills that would be of use ...I have essentially no skills that would be of use in a postapocalyptic society. So I pretty much don't plan for it.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-43776843065215729562011-01-25T17:32:52.255-08:002011-01-25T17:32:52.255-08:00quoting Neven: "Yes, if you truly have no con...quoting Neven: "Yes, if you truly have no confidence in a way out of this mess, then I guess that from this viewpoint it is ethical to consume those finite resources to improve your chances (and of your progeny). But I think you should still do it in the most efficient way possible."<br /><br />Actually, I am convinced living healthfully and investing time in raising children and community service is sufficient to secure selective advantage for genetic/social/intellectual legacy, which is a happy result. I wanted to frame the question in the least sympathetic way to sharpen the question.<br /><br />Thanks for the answer. Cheers!manuel moe ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04878149837118503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-71944054685429474382011-01-25T17:24:54.220-08:002011-01-25T17:24:54.220-08:00Coincidentally, John Michael Greer just has a new ...Coincidentally, John Michael Greer just has a new post up on catabolic collapse:<br /><br /><i>The usual result is the stairstep sequence of decline that’s traced by the history of so many declining civilizations—half a century of crisis and disintegration, say, followed by several decades of relative stability and partial recovery, and then a return to crisis; rinse and repeat, and <b>you’ve got the process that turned the Forum of imperial Rome into an early medieval sheep pasture.</b></i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-56845556283491522072011-01-25T16:57:15.076-08:002011-01-25T16:57:15.076-08:00They could have recognized it and moved to steady-...<i>They could have recognized it and moved to steady-state - but they did not. Has anything really changed?</i><br /><br />Yes and no. <br /><br />Yes, we know much more now. Another change is that this is about the whole world now, not just an empire.<br /><br />No, homo sapiens still hasn't evolved to an upgraded version with more wisdom.<br /><br /><i>If one has no confidence in the world to move to steady-state, is it ethical to contrive to secure selective advantage for a genetic/social/intellectual legacy - admitting that this will lead one to an over-consumption of finite resources?</i><br /><br />Yes, if you truly have no confidence in a way out of this mess, then I guess that from this viewpoint it is ethical to consume those finite resources to improve your chances (and of your progeny). But I think you should still do it in the most efficient way possible. You don't go building a concrete bunker and stock up guns and cans. Besides, everything will run out one day if it really comes to a serious contraction/collapse.<br /><br />From my ethical viewpoint I believe the aforementioned tactic of co-opting out of the bad part of society (the 'system') by becoming more, not totally, independent on the level of food and energy, cuts both ways. You show that there is another way that is better for you, for society and the globe. And if things don't work out, at least you have something to fall back on (whatever that's worth).<br /><br />There are enormous amounts of information on this in the Peak Oil-corner of the Internet, such as the <a href="http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Archdruid Report</a> (I believe mt has referred to it in the recent past) and many other places.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13842278679035824452011-01-25T14:48:59.161-08:002011-01-25T14:48:59.161-08:00Question to Neven and PDA:
I am inclined to agree...Question to Neven and PDA:<br /><br />I am inclined to agree with your views, but I have some questions.<br /><br />[1] The Roman Empire collapsed, more or less, because of the expense of standing armies and entitlements outstripped income from available conquerable territories. They could have recognized it and moved to steady-state - but they did not. Has anything really changed? [My answer: yes, some things have changed so that a subset of civilization can maintain western thought and science, by renouncing anxiety-driven consumerism. But it will somewhat resemble a stand in a post-apocalyptic world, which is grim.]<br /><br />[2] If one has no confidence in the world to move to steady-state, is it ethical to contrive to secure selective advantage for a genetic/social/intellectual legacy - admitting that this will lead one to an over-consumption of finite resources? [My answer: Yes. Actually, if lay-people see those that posses clear vision making preparation, it may stir political support for rational collective action, which is obviously preferable and less costly in resources. But I need to think this through more.]<br /><br />Phila: thank you for remarking this: "In the real world, of course, many poor people do have some agency, do take a passionate interest in local and global environmental issues." A good reminder.manuel moe ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04878149837118503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-74348275270858010352011-01-25T12:56:41.875-08:002011-01-25T12:56:41.875-08:00@Tom
Inequality has increased over the last gener...@Tom<br /><br />Inequality has <b>increased</b> over the last generation, not decreased.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05789761931551673481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-82917415939541591402011-01-25T12:23:45.144-08:002011-01-25T12:23:45.144-08:00re this post:
One step toward, is to make sure eve...re this post:<br />One step toward, is to make sure everyone's had a chance to read Your Money Or Your Life, by Robin & Dominguez (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Your-Money-Vicki-Dominguez-Robin/dp/B000GRFTIU/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295986897&sr=1-5" rel="nofollow">link</a>). I just bought a copy to give to one who needs it.<br /><br />re the comments:<br />We need a Bore Hole for InIt, please.Anna Hayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15176850465809297298noreply@blogger.com