tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post8200542168930735043..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: Summertime BluesMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-1621743513528600392010-12-19T18:03:07.534-08:002010-12-19T18:03:07.534-08:00> "listen to the podcast I mentioned befor...> "listen to the podcast I mentioned before"<br /><br />Folks (plural), a request - when you reference previous comments made here or elsewhere, it helps ye olde reader if you provide a link.Anna Hayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15176850465809297298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-53737323578315018172010-12-18T15:03:59.651-08:002010-12-18T15:03:59.651-08:00While I see no way to provide an overriding struct...While I see no way to provide an overriding structural global bureaucracy to fix our unbalanced ecological way of life, I think there will always be a way to get cooperation on ideas that benefit each individual nation-state. <br /><br />This would entail similar type governments. The problem right now is that the governments are of the classic liberal economics variety, meaning sell as much of the country off to create more and more capital to the multinational financiers and hope that fixes everything. It all ends up there in the long run. There are varying degrees of this in different parts of the world, but this is where we are headed. <br /><br />There are other forms of government that get little discussion in world politics, except to scare people. The collective right, ie old style Torism or the collective left ie the social democrats, marxists, mutualists,etc. Then there are the technocrats (yay!). Although I tend to lean to the left, the collective right seems to be the next best alternative. The problem being the imperialistic nature when resources are scarce. When liberal capitalism fails, and it has and will, there needs to be a collective mindset that takes back control of national resources and therefore world resources from the corporate, limitless growth model to which it was sold. Or we will make no progress toward ecologically balanced goals. <br /><br />If the answer is to take on the climate problem as part of the larger "balance" issue (which I've always thought should have the message), I don't see a way to fix the problem without a collective takeover, in one form or another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-64537477034428073392010-12-18T10:12:40.379-08:002010-12-18T10:12:40.379-08:00"The solution naturaly is revolution, but you..."The solution naturaly is revolution, but your tastes may vary." - Guthrie<br /><br />"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." - The Who<br /><br />Be careful what you wish for!Mal Adaptedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06123525780458234978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-17875345706505308062010-12-18T10:07:12.035-08:002010-12-18T10:07:12.035-08:00It is beyond imagining that nobody in Europe is th...It is beyond imagining that nobody in Europe is thinking about this. The share of the world economy that is American remains huge, but it is shrinking.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-61968075792249547112010-12-18T10:03:28.772-08:002010-12-18T10:03:28.772-08:00Dean:
"But by definition, the countries able...Dean:<br /><br />"But by definition, the countries able to block security council resolutions will generally be hard to pressure since they likely have strong economies. And also pride and patriotism to resist giving in."<br /><br />It'll be great of course if this 'AGW association of countries' can seriously dent the economy of a large nation, but perhaps it's not really necessary. What's important is whether this 'AGW association' <i>itself</i> can hold its own without relying on the large nations.<br /><br />If the Wikileaks leak is any indication, the <em>modus operandi</em> of the US State Department when dealing with smaller nations, such as Slovenia and Germany, has been to go around telling them 'you had better simply do what we say or we'll be angry and you really don't want us to be angry'. However, the US administration knows that this trick doesn't really work on China, Russia, India, or (to some extent) Brazil -- because they can hold their own.<br /><br />If there's suddenly also an 'AGW association' where these scare tactics fail to work, then I expect things to start getting interesting.<br /><br />-- <a href="http://climategate.tk/" rel="nofollow">frank</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-7825671201997681612010-12-18T07:09:41.524-08:002010-12-18T07:09:41.524-08:00We haven't seen any nuclear explosions in the ...We haven't seen any nuclear explosions in the atmosphere either for a while. All done without black helicopters.Martin Vermeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04537045395760606324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-35631930023503141492010-12-18T02:42:47.658-08:002010-12-18T02:42:47.658-08:00I noticed the old comments had gone, assumed you w...I noticed the old comments had gone, assumed you would to. At least you could re-instate the old system.<br /><br />The only other thing I can see working is Dean's suggestion. I'm afraid I am not very optimistic right now.guthriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17992984293423290387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-33382100328185327212010-12-17T13:58:00.662-08:002010-12-17T13:58:00.662-08:00Minor experiment clobbered all my old comments. No...Minor experiment clobbered all my old comments. No go for now.<br /><br />So Guthrie was the guinea pig and commented:<br /><em><br />Over here in the UK they dropped the full employment thing back in 1979 and never picked it up again. Our gvt (and as far as I can tell the EU ones as well) are entirely happy with growth and high unemployment.<br /><br />The solution naturaly is revolution, but your tastes may vary.<br /></em>Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-57868132437976868132010-12-17T11:33:35.402-08:002010-12-17T11:33:35.402-08:00The alternate to a global governance that creates ...The alternate to a global governance that creates some sort of enforceable structure is some way for countries to group together to apply pressure on others. This is what the UN does now, such as via sanctions. It isn't all that successful, and the Security Council system pretty much ensures that it cannot be used against the larger countries that resist. Sanctions can be approved against Iran or North Korea, but not China or the US.<br /><br />So if a group of countries got together and formed a voluntary association based on a willingness to and a record of mitigation and/or adaptation to AGW (which would have to be demonstrated before being allowed to join), they could choose to apply pressure against non-members via some form of sanction.<br /><br />But by definition, the countries able to block security council resolutions will generally be hard to pressure since they likely have strong economies. And also pride and patriotism to resist giving in.<br /><br />It still strikes me as unlikely, but it's the only system outside of an enforceable system that I can think of. It might be able to work in a world that overwhelmingly accepts AGW and for which successful policies have been demonstrated.Deanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283520139228675119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-28413679053729450742010-12-17T09:40:06.491-08:002010-12-17T09:40:06.491-08:00Frank, the best you can do as an individual is giv...Frank, the best you can do as an individual is give up using coal.<br /><br />If you think you should be trying to communicate instead, what are you communicating? That we should all get off the grid? I hope not. You would do better to communicate that we need new instituitions. <br /><br />If it's a tall order it's a tall order. Maybe small gestures won't be enough.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-91852290210985636842010-12-17T09:28:21.980-08:002010-12-17T09:28:21.980-08:00MT, methinks you spend too much time dreaming up g...MT, methinks you spend too much time dreaming up grandiose institutional structures, most of which won't even begin to have a snail's chance of getting built. A grandiose institutional structure for science journalism, a grandiose institutional structure for global atmospheric action, a grandiose institutional structure for separating discussion signal from noise... what next?<br /><br />It's OK to dream I guess, but if those dreams don't suggest a course of action that I can take, then personally I prefer to find something that I <i>can</i> actually do, rather than continually dreaming up more dreams.<br /><br />-- <a href="http://climategate.tk/" rel="nofollow">frank</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-71184482616777688142010-12-17T04:34:56.568-08:002010-12-17T04:34:56.568-08:00Also, as I was commenting about limits to growth o...Also, as I was commenting about limits to growth on this blog the other day, I was attacked by a limits-to-growth metaphor. See picture here:<br /><br />http://www.coveredinbees.org/sites/www.coveredinbees.org/files/img2631d.jpg<br /><br />Yup - that's a pigeon-print on the window. An almighty bang, scared the living bejeesus out of me while I was commenting. Kind of viscerally underscored what I was thinking about: we might not be adapted to see some of the barriers that the world may present us with. It doesn't mean they're not there.Dolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17110810881843699172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-91568746540831977702010-12-17T01:03:12.434-08:002010-12-17T01:03:12.434-08:00All great questions. I nearly got into a big waffl...All great questions. I nearly got into a big waffle, but (phew) will keep to one question: say some people wanted to learn more about Elinor Ostrom's work - looking at ways of managing common pool resources outside of the tired dichotomy of public vs private. (So e.g. maybe discussing how smaller regions might treat carbon as a common pool resource, and how exchange with other regions might work). I'd love to do that - e.g. listen to the podcast I mentioned before, then discuss with others, maybe with some framing questions.<br /><br />Is that something that could happen over the interwebs? Or is that sort of learning only effective face to face? I know a lot of work is being done around online education - but climate bloggin' folks know more than most the weaknesses of the internet. Nevertheless, there's clearly potential here to bring together disparate people around a common set of goals. Has anyone seen good, successful examples of this sort of semi-structured learning work on the web?<br /><br />I guess it could be incredibly simple. E.g. here's a google group, we're discussing the podcast between these dates, here's some guiding questions, maybe led by one or two people setting it up... That's just an online reading group.<br /><br />Just a thought. As I say, it may just be this sort of thing just doesn't work without a much more rigorous learning structure imposed on it.Dolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17110810881843699172noreply@blogger.com