tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post6380707368885063910..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: Willard and I Reflect on the LatestMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-65961574548718744282011-05-04T07:05:18.750-07:002011-05-04T07:05:18.750-07:00It's hard to know how to get through the fog o...It's hard to know how to get through the fog of ignorance and ignorance promotion, and all of its supposedly innocent fellow travelers. I like the MT approach as a trial balloon and in many ways think it's high time somebody went this way. The openness and honesty of the scientific process (full of glitches and infighting as it is, with big minds and egos on full display), still remarkable for promoting truth at all costs as the end product, is all too easy to exploit.<br /><br />Susan Andersonsusanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829151452002682271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13156794481143395702011-04-26T06:16:33.839-07:002011-04-26T06:16:33.839-07:00It seems to me that your 'strategy' is wor...It seems to me that your 'strategy' is working out perfectly. Say fuck a bunch of times and hundreds of people find you interesting. No such thing as bad advertising, especially on assholes' blogs.<br /><br />Then you get a couple of idiots who think they're right (about who knows what) showing up on your blog to add spice for your regulars. That probably attracts even more eyes. If that's your objective.Steve Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11808202186253600821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-3049037484983560322011-04-25T13:43:36.839-07:002011-04-25T13:43:36.839-07:00Well, I'm hopeful that the promised post addre...Well, I'm hopeful that the promised post addresses how education can proceed in a world where a (perhaps overdramatic) quote can get <a href="http://www.collide-a-scape.com/2011/04/23/whose-team-are-you-on/#comment-58545" rel="nofollow">halfway</a> around the world while mental models of reasonable fidelity are putting their boots on.<br /><br />Dan Olner's point from the previous thread is apposite in this regard. All the other side has to do is catch you "losing [y]our rag" in Dan's felicitous phrase. "real-realists" have to create those mental models you spoke of.<br /><br />The playing field's not just uneven. It's practically vertical.Paul Daniel Ashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17633446166342778475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13138117436825523042011-04-24T20:44:41.999-07:002011-04-24T20:44:41.999-07:00EliRabett --- Its difficult to tell...
"Save...<b>EliRabett</b> --- Its difficult to tell...<br /><br />"Saved from what?"<br />- Samuel Beckett, <i>Waiting for Godot</i>David B. Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917182411282836875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-20049817354476622162011-04-24T18:58:29.444-07:002011-04-24T18:58:29.444-07:00(not referring to recent comments, i hasten to cla...(not referring to recent comments, i hasten to clarify)Anna Hayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15176850465809297298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-69596408492943344462011-04-24T18:57:50.983-07:002011-04-24T18:57:50.983-07:00MT, a 2-cent recommendation: don't permit bili...MT, a 2-cent recommendation: don't permit bilious comments from first-name-only posters.Anna Hayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15176850465809297298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-68958489130153118762011-04-24T18:55:55.795-07:002011-04-24T18:55:55.795-07:00It's not rehearsalIt's not rehearsalEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-26104867087317822452011-04-24T17:34:24.149-07:002011-04-24T17:34:24.149-07:00I seem to have wandered onto the practice stage fo...I seem to have wandered onto the practice stage for <b>Waiting for Godot</b>.David B. Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917182411282836875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-34525383877851917822011-04-24T16:40:53.688-07:002011-04-24T16:40:53.688-07:00> I support lower taxes? I supported Ross's...> I support lower taxes? I supported Ross's tax idea back in 2007[.] http://climateaudit.org/2007/06/12/the-t3-tax/<br /><br />The link seems to be offered as evidence that Moshpit supported the tax. In the thread of comments from the post linked, there is no evidence that he supported the tax back then. So providing this link looks like a trick.<br /><br />Believing that a libertarian would welcome lower taxes seems warranted. We also have reasons to believe that Moshpit is a libertarian. Claiming that one supported a tax does not disprove that one would not welcome lower taxes. So this claim looks like a trick.<br /><br />These are two tricks. These might not be evil tricks, and even if they were, I would not condone such language. That said, these tricks are certainly wrong. The first one is innocuous; the second one is fallacious. <br /><br />This should not be too difficult to see. We can all see that the tricks used in the quote above are wrong. If Mosphit can't see that these kinds of tricks are wrong, well, no big deal.<br /><br />***<br /><br />Nevertheless, in the comment thread referred above, there is an interesting discussion by TokyoTom, whom I believe is a friend of MT:<br /><br />http://climateaudit.org/2007/06/12/the-t3-tax/#comment-91503<br /><br />The reply by McKitrick is also interesting:<br /><br />http://climateaudit.org/2007/06/12/the-t3-tax/#comment-91508willardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06682613011851528330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-24897936314336293332011-04-24T14:29:54.257-07:002011-04-24T14:29:54.257-07:00Bart, the difficulty with being charitable in thes...Bart, the difficulty with being charitable in these circumstances is that leads to the sort of assumptions that you or Michael would never make in your day jobs. It also leads to intellectual wheel-spinning, which can be entertaining for a time but utlimately is just boring. It's a particularly bad sign when obvious propagandists for the bad guys become topics to which you return again and again. <br /><br />I think both of you should do a post describing what you think you've learned from your blogs so far, where you think you're headed, and what value you think you have and will add to society's response to the climate crisis.Steve Bloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12943109973917998380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-18652316994669627652011-04-24T11:03:48.508-07:002011-04-24T11:03:48.508-07:00"I supported Ross's tax idea back in 2007..."I supported Ross's tax idea back in 2007<br /><br />http://climateaudit.org/2007/06/12/the-t3-tax/"<br /><br />I'm curious as to why you are attracted to that idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-6658347085111232242011-04-24T10:31:01.781-07:002011-04-24T10:31:01.781-07:00I enjoy these converstaions between you and Willar...I enjoy these converstaions between you and Willard. I guess peeking in on other people's conversation has some kind of instinctive appeal (as wikileaks and "climategate" attest to), and it this case it seems entirely legal and ethical since you decide to open up the conversation yourself.<br /><br />I see Willard pointing out how to communicate strategically towards you goal (and how not to), and I think he makes good points on that front (eg charitability is your weapon; being uncharitabel undoes you. He must be a poet.) Such strategic thinking is important in this fight about credibility. Perhaps we should take some lessons from Mosher on that.<br /><br />BartAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-83734710183746821962011-04-24T10:23:48.057-07:002011-04-24T10:23:48.057-07:00"let's leave it here, please."
MT, ..."let's leave it here, please."<br /><br />MT, ultimately whether we leave "it" here or there isn't up to me; it's up to you. I'm curious to know how your search for an alternative blog host is going.<br /><br />Anyway, I reiterate my point which was obscured by Tom's obscuring. Namely, <b>it's just as important to burn bridges as it is to build bridges.</b> If you don't, you you'll just keep compromising on your core values -- of truth, science, and justice -- until your entire life consists of trying to please everyone.<br /><br />With all due respect, Willard is wrong if he thinks that there's no need to burn any bridges.<br /><br />* * *<br /><br />dhogaza:<br /><br />Speaking of that, actually I'd also like to know more about the second "FOIA" comment which ended up on Watts's blog, and which moderator CTM replied with "A lot is happening behind the scenes". Which IP address did the comment come from? What was the original message from "FOIA"?<br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-48202093679447769542011-04-24T09:32:11.767-07:002011-04-24T09:32:11.767-07:00"Imagine that I held the following position. ..."Imagine that I held the following position. Our concern for opennness trumps everything."<br /><br />Great. Then who stole the friggin' e-mails?<br /><br />Oh, you don't know? If openness trumps everything, why didn't you and Tom expend your energy on uncovering who stole them?<br /><br />Oh, I forgot, "openness" is meant to be taken within a certain context ...dhogazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589109126483161671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-7179256484227261652011-04-24T09:23:01.058-07:002011-04-24T09:23:01.058-07:00This is getting boring.
Frank, thanks for your d...This is getting boring. <br /><br />Frank, thanks for your defenses, but let's leave it here, please. Tom, thanks for the hair shirt. I am thinking about it, per Willard's suggestion as much as yours.<br /><br />Enough, please.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-86161669432917852342011-04-24T09:18:51.635-07:002011-04-24T09:18:51.635-07:00Hmm. I'm trying intentionally to be obnoxious,...Hmm. I'm trying intentionally to be obnoxious, and succeeding pretty well, I think.<br /><br />But picking on someone my own size? Are you smoking crack? Tobis has the pieces of paper, the letters behind his name, the blog, the support of many in the climate establishment. I'm just a commenter on his weblog.<br /><br />Unless being right increases my size.<br /><br />As for being a bully, it's Tobis who bullies unmercifully. Usually his targets are magnanimous enough to let him get away with it--Mosher, Curry, Liljegren.<br /><br />I'm more cantankerous. If Tobis acts like a dimwitted little shit, I will call him a dimwitted little shit. He lied about me. When he tried to spew the same lies about Curry, I got in his face. Now he's pulling the same crap with Mosher.<br /><br />So he's still acting like a dimwitted little shit.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12747117922597525042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-30064582740425547532011-04-24T09:05:29.926-07:002011-04-24T09:05:29.926-07:00Tom:
That's an interesting view. So in your m...Tom:<br /><br />That's an interesting view. So in your mind, because you're absolutely right and MT is absolutely wrong, therefore as a sort of virtual reward you've been offered the right to spew whatever vitriol and insults and fact-free garbage you wish?<br /><br />Or maybe I should ask a different question:<br /><br /><b>Why don't you pick someone your size, you obnoxious bully?</b><br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-89965474565738238432011-04-24T08:50:19.061-07:002011-04-24T08:50:19.061-07:00Because Tobis knows I'm right in what I write....Because Tobis knows I'm right in what I write. This his expiation. I am serving as an electronic hair shirt.<br /><br />I'm not oppressed and I don't feel oppressed. I think it goes the other way round.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12747117922597525042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-89350352885102699782011-04-24T08:44:02.337-07:002011-04-24T08:44:02.337-07:00Hey Tom Fuller,
You're already allowed to spe...Hey Tom Fuller,<br /><br />You're already allowed to spew vitriol here with virtual impunity. What more do you want, Mr. I-Am-Oppressed Tom?<br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-10920961811366814752011-04-24T08:38:14.155-07:002011-04-24T08:38:14.155-07:00Writing about Tobis and bridges is dangerous.
The...Writing about Tobis and bridges is dangerous.<br /><br />The most appropriate comparison is with Colonel Nicholson (Alec Guiness) and the Bridge Over the River Kwai.<br /><br />Madness... Madness.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12747117922597525042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-25297275602970382722011-04-24T05:07:56.259-07:002011-04-24T05:07:56.259-07:00Re "I want to respect people and include as m...Re "I want to respect people and include as many as possible in the conversation": <br /><br />I'll put it this way. I think knowing when to burn bridges is just as important as knowing when to build bridges. You can't just keep building bridges when you know that some people will be using the bridges as a means to trash your work.<br /><br />This means, the choice between bridge-building and bridge-burning should be made out of careful consideration, not out of some reflexive fear of the consequences of the opposite course of action.<br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-71051441839612218932011-04-24T02:26:03.160-07:002011-04-24T02:26:03.160-07:00MT, the problem I see is that you can't quite ...MT, the problem I see is that you can't quite decide what exactly your precise goal is. There are many possible goals, e.g.<br /><br />(a) get climate legislation enacted yesterday<br /><br />(b) stop the Koch nonsense mill<br /><br />(c) convince the US or world population to embrace science and logic.<br /><br />What you've repeatedly done is to mash them together into some sort of utterly confusing 'goal' like<br /><br />(ǻ) use the Koch nonsense mill to convince the US or world population to get climate legislation enacted and embrace science and logic.<br /><br />Such a 'goal' is practically impossible, and what's more, thinking too much about this confusing pseudo-'problem' makes you susceptible to confusion by, well, the confusionists, and provides them with another opening for reasonable-sounding -- but ultimately bogus -- attacks.<br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-47866460268784238022011-04-24T02:13:47.122-07:002011-04-24T02:13:47.122-07:00Steven Mosher, "principles" my foot. If ...Steven Mosher, "principles" my foot. If anything, <b>it's now plain as day that you, dear Sir, are <em>not</em> anything like Julian Assange.</b><br /><br />Shortly after preaching "openness" and "transparency", already <a href="http://initforthegold.blogspot.com/2011/04/moshers-team.html?showComment=1303618792146#c8389901027884220008" rel="nofollow">shown</a> that you're willing to throw PFC Manning under the bus precisely for "passing around confidential documents", and you'll 'justify' that by throwing out some hyper-specific pseudo-legalistic garbage.<br /><br />And why not try to <b>answer the <a href="http://initforthegold.blogspot.com/2011/04/moshers-team.html?showComment=1303618792146#c8389901027884220008" rel="nofollow">questions</a> I asked regarding your understanding of UK law?</b><br /><br />-- frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-46408603904003976212011-04-23T23:23:34.009-07:002011-04-23T23:23:34.009-07:00I support lower taxes?
I supported Ross's ta...I support lower taxes?<br /><br /> I supported Ross's tax idea back in 2007<br /><br />http://climateaudit.org/2007/06/12/the-t3-tax/<br /><br />MT, you're still my friend. That is, I have no issue with you calling me evil. I just think you are mistaken about that. You find my support for openness comes at the expense of the planet. Even if that were true, it would not make me dr evil. You think somebody who has different morals than you do is evil. That's odd. I think someone with no morals is evil.<br /><br />Imagine that I held the following position. Our concern for opennness trumps everything. That's not evil. That is saying you have a principal worth everything, worth dying for. Now, I dont hold that position, but its interesting to look at philosophically. <br /> <br />what kind of trick does Moshpit use. well most are demonstrated in the mails<br /><br />Let just take a simple example. Passing around confidential documents. Yup, they did that. What's that mean? what's that allow people to DO with a conversation?<br /><br />You criticize me for having something to do with passing around these private documents. Bad Moshpit. I can now flip the script.<br />flip the script,here means<br /><br />"Commonly used in rap battles, it means to take what somebody said against you and to use it against them."<br /> <br /><br /> The mails were this perfect boomerang. Essentially any behavior you want to accuse me of, I can find in the mails.<br /><br />Like Jones hoping that no one will do anything about climate change in order to prove the science right.<br />here jones values proving the science right above saving the planet. <br /><br />Yup. That's in a mail to John Christy.stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06920897530071011399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-435678703738513442011-04-23T20:43:53.590-07:002011-04-23T20:43:53.590-07:00It's the effect they have, not how they ration...It's the effect they have, not how they rationalize their behavior inside their own heads. You too, for that matter, albeit that you're lower on the scale.Steve Bloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12943109973917998380noreply@blogger.com