tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post9065769969624151137..comments2023-09-28T08:13:11.489-07:00Comments on Only In It For The Gold: The Press and Climate: An Anti-TestimonialMichael Tobishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-17050731108991575032011-02-24T12:30:34.672-08:002011-02-24T12:30:34.672-08:00Sorry, I should have explained more - churnalism i...Sorry, I should have explained more - churnalism is so endemic that I forget that it's not always obvious that the problem is with the media.<br /><br />It's a site aimed at the media, not the press releases directly.<br /><br />The main point of that site is to see how much a story is lifted verbatim from a press release without any change, and without reference - thus giving the impression that it has been checked and some (extra) reporting done.<br /><br />Another use it can be put to is how much a story has been lifted from another news outlet and repeated without any (extra) checking etc. being made.<br /><br />A good example is here:<br />http://www.fivechinesecrackers.com/2011/02/churnalism-we-so-totally-dont-do-that.html<br /><br />It doesn't help with the op-eds, but it could be useful in tracing the source of some stories.skankyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584908320777937193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-30207652742676896022011-02-24T11:56:38.166-08:002011-02-24T11:56:38.166-08:00Skanky, my take on press releases is radical.
If...Skanky, my take on press releases is radical. <br /><br />If they're worth reading, I pass them on verbatim and don't pretend to add any value.<br /><br />The problem as far as I can see is not the press releases, it's with the press.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-25089750128411573152011-02-24T11:33:11.442-08:002011-02-24T11:33:11.442-08:00Don't know how useful this is outside the UK, ...Don't know how useful this is outside the UK, not tried it out, but will be useful:<br /><br />http://churnalism.com/skankyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584908320777937193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-34990274281870391612011-02-24T07:33:28.772-08:002011-02-24T07:33:28.772-08:00pangolin - I'm not thinking of where we find o...pangolin - I'm not thinking of where we find ourselves today. Electric and hybrid cars have been around -as an idea- for absolutely ages. I suppose the reason I thought of cars was a radio interview I heard a couple of weeks ago. The interviewee was talking about being 'stuck' in the backrooms at a major conference. One of the other 'stuck' people was a senior designer from a US car manufacturer.<br /><br />All the bright-eyed youngsters wanted to know how the US was getting along with fuel efficient cars. The answer. We're not. Why not? We. don't. want. to. Further questions elicited no details, let alone explanations.<br /><br />Better public discourse on these issues 10-15 or more years ago would have had a far more efficient fleet on US roads in step with European design. And focus on this aspect of car design would have promoted more radical designs a long, long time ago.adeladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02019930864931919369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-28015497965380931242011-02-23T18:52:26.132-08:002011-02-23T18:52:26.132-08:00Call him Tom Filler. Try just not even reading hi...Call him Tom Filler. Try just not even reading him. It gets easy with practice, especially when most everybody else is ignoring him, like in that thread.<br /><br />It sounds like Keith's take is that it's not up to journalism to clarify to the public what to expect in norms (if any) in reporting/long pieces/opinion, that it's simply not journalism's responsibility. (I suppose he'd dance away from that characterization, without clarification. Must be taking lessons from Judy.) Compare that to the insistence that scientists' job to do the communicating, and that any problem in that is their fault for not being accessible enough. Neat, huh?Andy Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06969447445823549041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-13499167095482888482011-02-23T13:53:16.165-08:002011-02-23T13:53:16.165-08:00Not engaging with Fuller's amazing obtuseness ...Not engaging with Fuller's amazing obtuseness has been an exercise in restraint on that thread, for sure.Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-15001004420625072232011-02-23T13:34:02.734-08:002011-02-23T13:34:02.734-08:00the drive for profits placing sensationalism above...<i>the drive for profits placing sensationalism above sense</i><br /><br />I thought it was interesting that <a href="http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/publications/downloads/boykoff07-geoforum.pdf" rel="nofollow">Jules and Max Boykoff</a> talked about this as something that's not novel or contemporary but rather baked in to the DNA of journalism: "the first-order journalistic norms of personalization, dramatization, and novelty." Their paper explored how these norms conflicted and colluded with "the second-order norms of authority-order and balance." Amusingly, <i>getting it right</i> does not appear to be a "journalistic norm."<br /><br />I was going to note that the CaS thread had turned into a real train-wreck, but I see that term's already been applied - certainly with more justification - to another situation. Meanwhile, looks like Keith's place has more or less devolved into Tom Fuller's Tumblr.Paul Daniel Ashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17633446166342778475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-54818101997237033362011-02-23T10:29:39.103-08:002011-02-23T10:29:39.103-08:00Thank you, L.Carey, you are very kind. And you did...Thank you, L.Carey, you are very kind. And you did make your point very well. <br /><br />There is one more thing that I see as a major deficiency of the news reporting: The lack of useful context to evaluate the information. I find that very often just the "facts" of the news item are given ("congress decided to spend so much on such-and-such" or "...passed this law"), without any context how this changes the existing situation, or if this is a substantial change in policy or not. <br /><br />If you are a political junkie, you might already know what the background is, how the situation changed, and what the policy implications are. So this piece of information might be useful to you.<br /><br />But if you do not have this background, you have to wait for a "news analysis" piece which then might put things in context for you. <br /><br />In the absence of this, you forget a piece of information again right away, if you cannot integrate it into some context and have no preexisting frame to evaluate it against. <br /><br />And too often, I find this lacking completely from the news reporting. TV is worst (I found American TV news generally pretty useless), but even newspapers with more space are pretty bad.Shining Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00168915835667534416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-59991913229185762252011-02-23T10:19:57.119-08:002011-02-23T10:19:57.119-08:00@L Carey - Thank you for your excellent comment.
...@L Carey - Thank you for your excellent comment.<br /><br />@King of the Road - I have personally been interviewed for media pieces perhaps five or six times and close family members or friends have had dozens of interviews and I would estimate the total number of stories to be published as a result without basic and easily corrected errors of fact to be less than 20%. It is easy as a result to bash journalists (and they certainly deserve their fair share of blame), but the problems are systemic, relating to the contemporary practices of journalism, tight deadlines, undermining of specialisation (so that increasingly, all journos are expected to write on all fields), and the drive for profits placing sensationalism above sense.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-20587536342772589612011-02-23T08:48:22.322-08:002011-02-23T08:48:22.322-08:00I just wanted to say that Shining Raven really nai...I just wanted to say that Shining Raven really nailed (much better than I) one of the key points I was trying to make. Lots of folks are looking to the MSM for accurate information to figure out what's really worth worrying about - assuming that even if folks like Will and Tierney (whom Kloor insists are journalists) express strong opinions, they aren't allowed to lie and just make stuff up. After all, who wants to do independent research on every issue that might be important, just to see whether the journos are lying, fabricating or spinning. But it appears that this simplistic view is too mundane for the arcane rules that seem to govern the journos today, where caveat emptor appears to be the rule (i.e, if you accept apparent statements of fact that turn out to be lies or materially misleading, that's your tough luck for not being a better consumer). This is just one more piece in a massive failure of societal risk management.LChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13887748571254484441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-20640626410847136012011-02-23T03:53:12.127-08:002011-02-23T03:53:12.127-08:00I've been part of the MSM in a small way much ...I've been part of the MSM in a small way much of my life - it's just not a courageous industry, on balance. Michael's question is good.Marion Delgadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09493068399042656060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-26668289967073824392011-02-23T02:41:06.921-08:002011-02-23T02:41:06.921-08:00As Andy F points out, Keith says "But on the ...As Andy F points out, Keith says "But on the whole, your view from the bleachers does not comport with reality."<br /><br />This struck me as being the main problem in how he sees the communication between journalists and their readers, and it seems completely wrong to me.<br /><br />The model I see behind this is that journalists play some kind of game according to the rules they learned in journalism school, that's the playing field where the real action seems to be and where points are scored. (The view from the bleachers does not comport with reality, so I take this to mean that "reality" is what the players experience).<br /><br />Hence we get all the distinctions between opinion pieces, straight news pieces and magazine pieces which apparently have different standards of accuracy of the information conveyed. <br /><br />I submit that this is really all quite beside the point. The readers are not looking on as spectators at a game, the point of the game is to communicate with the onlookers. <br /><br />It is completely unreasonable to require the readers to be conversant with arcane rules governing the journalists behavior before they can understand the communication - which after all should be directed at them. <br /><br />It is fine for universities and colleges to now offer courses for critical evaluation of media content. It is not fine to expect people to first take such a course in order to be able to evaluate their newspaper. <br /><br />It seems obvious that the rules according to which journalists operate have become so complex that many people do not understand them any longer or are not even aware of their existence. <br /><br />This seems to lead to a breakdown in the communication. But apparently journalists think it is the fault of the public for being not well enough educated to know this?<br /><br />I think if things go wrong in the communication (as they obviously do) it would be incumbent on journalists to review the assumptions under which they operate, instead of blaming their readers.Shining Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00168915835667534416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-56301659930228176342011-02-22T17:56:48.940-08:002011-02-22T17:56:48.940-08:00adelady_Please provide me with a link to the mirac...adelady_Please provide me with a link to the miracle of mathematics that can project less than 3% of new car sales going to hybrids to a sustainable automobile fleet. <br /><br />You might also want to look at the IEA 2010 World Energy Outlook and tell me where all that gasoline is coming from.Pangolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18369503994505817789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-48203037337362886472011-02-22T16:29:13.580-08:002011-02-22T16:29:13.580-08:00The thing of it is, though, is that effective comm...The thing of it is, though, is that effective communication would look something like <a href="http://www.gregcraven.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64%3Acravenagutalk12-15-10&catid=2&lang=en" rel="nofollow">this</a> but on a large scale. Which is vanishingly unlikely to happen, since scientists as a class generally shy away from saying the F word from a podium...Paul Daniel Ashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17633446166342778475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-1442027544381499112011-02-22T16:27:47.878-08:002011-02-22T16:27:47.878-08:00Perhaps part of the problem in the posible trend t...Perhaps part of the problem in the posible trend to poorer reporting of technical issues is simply that things are bigger and more complex, and get more so every few years. So technical subjects get broader and deeper, specialisation being required to cover each ever narrowing bit. <br />When you add this to the dumbing down of the media and drive for simple profit, there's no ability to employ the kind of expertise necessary to make sense of things.guthriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17992984293423290387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-1323754208226136612011-02-22T15:23:10.995-08:002011-02-22T15:23:10.995-08:00@Pangolin "You're going to take away thei...@Pangolin "You're going to take away their cars."<br /><br />And that, surely, is just another failure (or bias) to be laid at the feet of poor journalism. If journalists can stir up excitement at any number unlikely expectations, they could surely say something positive, encouraging or even enthusiastic about electric cars.<br /><br />We don't have to "give up" cars if we organise ourselves properly. Personal transport has many options. High value liquid fuels should be reserved for applications where there seems to be no alternative - flying being the obvious one.<br /><br />This is not rocket science. And I see no good reason why ordinary reporters can't handle this effectively.adeladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02019930864931919369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-62376185414412418912011-02-22T13:23:19.624-08:002011-02-22T13:23:19.624-08:00I've had some horribly bad and very good exper...I've had some horribly bad and very good experiences with science/environmental journalists. Good journalism requires a lot of hard work and someone who isn't embarassed to ask uncomfortable questions. Not everyone does it well.<br /><br />Whether reading the paper or listening to NPR, I find the best journalism seems to be in the business section/news. Why? I guess because it is viewed as apolitical and therefore it's journalists are free to do their job, i.e. I think editors and news outlet owners are crushing good work either by hiring "feel good" reporters who are clueless, or by steering reporters away from controversy. In this case the controversy is the truth about global warming.Andy Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00576797599310627089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-84725122757138072772011-02-22T11:34:13.988-08:002011-02-22T11:34:13.988-08:00Anna, I did say so. But I can't control what p...Anna, I did say so. But I can't control what people do. And this isn't the site I want to drive traffic to anyway. (Stay tuned...)Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-75497889082995068922011-02-22T11:23:55.692-08:002011-02-22T11:23:55.692-08:00A constructive suggestion -
Perhaps, rather than ...A constructive suggestion - <br />Perhaps, rather than drive traffic to (and enhance google rank of) sites hosted by the clueless, have your comment there just provide a "we're discussing the issue over *here*" link to a corresponding post on a clueful blog?Anna Hayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15176850465809297298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-64494840026586659662011-02-22T10:07:34.363-08:002011-02-22T10:07:34.363-08:00Quoting "Adam": "What disturbs me n...Quoting "Adam": "What disturbs me now is the trend in the media to ever-poorer representation of the facts in technical issues."<br /><br />Adam, I don't think it really was much better in the past. The only thing that has changed is that the competent can congregate outside of the "sanctioned" media, compare notes, and come to an agreement that mainstream reporting is dizzy and ditsy.manuel moe ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04878149837118503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-38452099002626332302011-02-22T07:41:36.136-08:002011-02-22T07:41:36.136-08:00King of the Road:
...the media reported extensivel...<i>King of the Road:<br />...the media reported extensively on a topic where I had either reasonably deep specialist knowledge or personal knowledge of events. In each case, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, there were major errors of substantial facts.</i> <br /><br />Yes, that is my experience as well. What disturbs me now is the <b>trend</b> in the media to ever-poorer representation of the facts in technical issues. They have been pretty bad for as long as I can remember, but they are surely getting worse. Hell, nowadays they are losing their grip on grammar and spelling, let alone the basic principles of science.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955691670049830140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-30104779739375301382011-02-22T06:13:56.065-08:002011-02-22T06:13:56.065-08:00I've consigned KK to the "read only if li...I've consigned KK to the "read only if linked by somebody worthwhile" pile too, for much the same reasons. I also notice after a couple months that his posts scarcely get 10 comments unless you (mt), PDA, thingsbreak or other thoughtfuls care to respond.<br /><br />KK's response to LCarey is a monument to his obtuseness. He waves off a detailed observation from an outside stakeholder, somebody in essence in the same boat as policymakers, with "But on the whole, your view from the bleachers does not comport with reality." So not only are the science people in no place to judge, but informed nonspecialists too! The whole world is just plain out of step with the man.Andy Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06969447445823549041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-84352810069808851452011-02-22T03:46:35.674-08:002011-02-22T03:46:35.674-08:00There have been maybe 10 times in my life where th...<i>There have been maybe 10 times in my life where the media reported extensively on a topic where I had either reasonably deep specialist knowledge or personal knowledge of events. In each case, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, there were major errors of substantial facts.</i><br /><br />Yep, same experience here. I don't believe in media anymore. They serve for entertainment and nothing else. Yes, there is excellent journalism too... and I would happily trade all of it in for a guaranteed level of truthfulness. Like we have in... ehhh... the peer-reviewed literature. Imperfect as it may be, for journalism that's the standard to aspire to. Long, long way to go.Martin Vermeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04537045395760606324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-77616843832158860442011-02-22T02:36:15.311-08:002011-02-22T02:36:15.311-08:00Watching Glenn Beck over at crock reminded me: the...Watching <a href="http://climatecrocks.com/2011/02/21/the-right-wing-noise-machine-there-is-no-climate-change-anti-christ-here-end-of-the-world-soon-details-at-11/" rel="nofollow">Glenn Beck over at crock</a> reminded me: the idea that the media should "evaluate, summarize and communicate accurate information" is nice, but what actually does the media do? Perhaps it's just a feedback system that works like any other market. There's a tight link between headlines and what particular demographics will buy. The more they buy it, the more advertising revenue there is: it's just a market.<br /><br />This is obviously not a new idea (cf. Chomsky) but perhaps we're forgetting it. I tend to go to the Guardian for what I consider 'accurate' information, but - at least in part - I'm just another demographic being fed the sort of headlines I want to read.<br /><br />That's the only way I can manage to explain Glenn Beck: there's been a massive positive feedback between Fox and its consumers. Well: Fox, the consumers and presumably shareholders: Beck is surely Howard Beale after his <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI5hrcwU7Dk&feature=related" rel="nofollow">Damascan conversion</a>.Dolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17110810881843699172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524070301101240472.post-207362857988746472011-02-21T23:49:33.896-08:002011-02-21T23:49:33.896-08:00Observing that people in other countries are clear...Observing that people in other countries are clearly able to understand the science of climate change despite a wide variety of political systems leads me to believe that people in the U.S. actually <i>do</i> understand what the science says. The science says that any real solution will involve a massive reduction in fossil fuel use. <i>You're going to take away their cars.</i> <br /><br />So they try to put off the inevitable with dumb excuses. And, the media, dependent upon auto industry ad dollars, goes along.Pangolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18369503994505817789noreply@blogger.com